Quote of the year by Paul Markham:

[MrMaxwell]

I think that alot of affiliate programs have a plethora of ways to fuck you right up your ass what with their upsells, tour leaks, untracked alternate billing methods, etc etc etc.
(And that's if they're not shaving, or they could be doing all of that AND shaving your signups)

[erots]

I love how everyone is talking about selling porn so rationally and thats what it is really... talking about selling porn. As I have nothing better to do with my time I started educating myself by reading all sorts of books. This made me realize something. Netpond is an environment where people are exposed to selling & marketing tips but there is nothing here about creating a product or brand.

But this is actually exacly what people should be concentrating at. Yes there are people who make a killing with sales, but not all people are the sales type. They can get good at sales but it is really hard to get excellant at it... in a way that you can live off it alone anyways.

I'm not asking everyone to start a paysite, you don't have to. You can treat your free site like a paysite. This is where the creating a value comes in. When your free site/paysite is exacly like all the others on the net it really has no value.

Like when we look at Paul Markham's paysite it is really just a paysite with your general teen porn on it with nothing new. You can find such stuff everywhere and it is clear that such sites only idea is to sell. Well, there is only so much teen porn you can sell to people, this means that there is limited revenue and it all gets shared between the guys who sell teen porn. More guys you have selling it, less revenue they each make.

Yup it is economics I'm talking about if somebody already noticed. Anyway as anyone who has learned marketing & advertising knows the great "me-too" period, then they also know that there are two ways to stay alive in such situation - make/sell new products all the time or concentrate on building a brand.

There is this Epic Cash thread, dunno if I already wrote in there but it is one of the best things I have read from this board recently. From the posting in that thread that same theory finds proof. Everyone who has built a brand... something valuable that is not just selling something everyone else is selling to people... will survive and grow. Everyone who just concentrates on selling can face some really hard times or must be extremely good at it.

Somehow I get a feeling that only 20% of people in here could make a living with only selling, because they grasp the concept of how the business works(for example slaxxx is definately one of them). Maybe it is even less than 20%, I dunno. I somehow got a feeling that not many people like educating themselves.

So, story sites, review sites, personal blogs, paysites that concentrate on creating something valuable, evolving and listening to their members will survive. People who just sell their old crap will get poorer and poorer(Paul Markham). Your customers aren't stupid, they are human beings(I think Ogilvy said something like that very long time ago).

If you feel insecure about selling something, then build something valuable. Sure it doesn't work as well as your typical sales page at first, but it has potential to grow.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by MrMaxwell

Customer acquisition as you refer to it is 95% of the ballgame..
If you can acquire a paying customer, even if the initial revenue is very small, you've acquired a paying customer.. to me it makes more sense to acquire more paying customers even if you don't make alot on them right away and then figure out exactly how to milk them.

Perhaps as a paysite owner. As an affiliate, unless I truly believe that the customer will keep coming back and buying over and over again, I just want to see the money.

If a program is convinced they will make mondo dollars with a new client, pay me and I will walk away, and you can do what you like with your client.

Paying me 50% of a $1 movie play isn't exactly going to make me a ton of money, I would have to hope that the guy comes back 70 times to equal a single $35 signup.

[Rofl]

Raises an interesting point.

Who here is making money, trying to make enough money to be an affiliate for the rest of their lives?

Who is trying to get a little 'nest egg' together so they can invest it in something more ambitious?

[RawAlex]

Erots, many people forget that porn is all about hitting the customers preferences, and giving them fresh alternatives. Why do porn girls like Micah Moore and Bree Olsen do so well? They hit a wide segment of the market, and they have both moved past that status of "some naked girl fucking" and moved on to be named stars. 2 years from now, there will be other teen newbies who will make it to being known by name.

Grey, bland, generic product placement isn't going to do it.

I look at sites like lightspeed, nubiles, and even 88square as sites who have worked to bring girls from unknown status to being at least semi-famous in their own right. Paul have at least one girl on his site who was also a lightspeed girl. I would suspect that if you showed her picture to most people, they would say "isn't she a lightspeed girl?" and wouldn't mention Paul's site at all. Branding, name awareness, and personality marketing all get together to make the difference.

If you create value in the customer's mind, they will pay for value. Lowering the price or cheaping things out is easy, but it most often leaves huge amounts of money on the table.

[MrMaxwell]

Originally Posted by erots

I love how everyone is talking about selling porn so rationally and thats what it is really... talking about selling porn. As I have nothing better to do with my time I started educating myself by reading all sorts of books. This made me realize something. Netpond is an environment where people are exposed to selling & marketing tips but there is nothing here about creating a product or brand.

But this is actually exacly what people should be concentrating at. Yes there are people who make a killing with sales, but not all people are the sales type. They can get good at sales but it is really hard to get excellant at it... in a way that you can live off it alone anyways.

I'm not asking everyone to start a paysite, you don't have to. You can treat your free site like a paysite. This is where the creating a value comes in. When your free site/paysite is exacly like all the others on the net it really has no value.

Like when we look at Paul Markham's paysite it is really just a paysite with your general teen porn on it with nothing new. You can find such stuff everywhere and it is clear that such sites only idea is to sell. Well, there is only so much teen porn you can sell to people, this means that there is limited revenue and it all gets shared between the guys who sell teen porn. More guys you have selling it, less revenue they each make.

Yup it is economics I'm talking about if somebody already noticed. Anyway as anyone who has learned marketing & advertising knows the great "me-too" period, then they also know that there are two ways to stay alive in such situation - make/sell new products all the time or concentrate on building a brand.

There is this Epic Cash thread, dunno if I already wrote in there but it is one of the best things I have read from this board recently. From the posting in that thread that same theory finds proof. Everyone who has built a brand... something valuable that is not just selling something everyone else is selling to people... will survive and grow. Everyone who just concentrates on selling can face some really hard times or must be extremely good at it.

Somehow I get a feeling that only 20% of people in here could make a living with only selling, because they grasp the concept of how the business works(for example slaxxx is definately one of them). Maybe it is even less than 20%, I dunno. I somehow got a feeling that not many people like educating themselves.

So, story sites, review sites, personal blogs, paysites that concentrate on creating something valuable, evolving and listening to their members will survive. People who just sell their old crap will get poorer and poorer(Paul Markham). Your customers aren't stupid, they are human beings(I think Ogilvy said something like that very long time ago).

If you feel insecure about selling something, then build something valuable. Sure it doesn't work as well as your typical sales page at first, but it has potential to grow.

"Netpond is an environment where people are exposed to selling & marketing tips but there is nothing here about creating a product or brand."

That's a juicy motherfucker of a statement..
I really like that realization..
It's not just Netpond, it's most all boards are that way.\

In any other business it is ALL ABOUT creating a brand- one of the first things considered by a businesses marketing department.. it's obviously not the same for us as affiliates, though, except for those of us who ride on the coat tails of a large brand promoting it.. but if the brand name does the selling, in this business, in that case it's usually too saturated already.. interesting.

[MrMaxwell]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Erots, many people forget that porn is all about hitting the customers preferences, and giving them fresh alternatives. Why do porn girls like Micah Moore and Bree Olsen do so well? They hit a wide segment of the market, and they have both moved past that status of "some naked girl fucking" and moved on to be named stars. 2 years from now, there will be other teen newbies who will make it to being known by name.

Grey, bland, generic product placement isn't going to do it.

I look at sites like lightspeed, nubiles, and even 88square as sites who have worked to bring girls from unknown status to being at least semi-famous in their own right. Paul have at least one girl on his site who was also a lightspeed girl. I would suspect that if you showed her picture to most people, they would say "isn't she a lightspeed girl?" and wouldn't mention Paul's site at all. Branding, name awareness, and personality marketing all get together to make the difference.

If you create value in the customer's mind, they will pay for value. Lowering the price or cheaping things out is easy, but it most often leaves huge amounts of money on the table.

What about broads like Jameson who have been around a long time? Everyone knows who they are, we do they do, both sides, and they continue year after year to sell and sell and sell - is it because they dig the actual broad, the brand name becomes trusted for producing good content, or what?

[MrMaxwell]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Perhaps as a paysite owner. As an affiliate, unless I truly believe that the customer will keep coming back and buying over and over again, I just want to see the money.

If a program is convinced they will make mondo dollars with a new client, pay me and I will walk away, and you can do what you like with your client.

Paying me 50% of a $1 movie play isn't exactly going to make me a ton of money, I would have to hope that the guy comes back 70 times to equal a single $35 signup.

You and headboy are absolutely right on this point- absolutely understood.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by MrMaxwell

What about broads like Jameson who have been around a long time? Everyone knows who they are, we do they do, both sides, and they continue year after year to sell and sell and sell - is it because they dig the actual broad, the brand name becomes trusted for producing good content, or what?

Ignore that this is porn for a second. Think about the music business. It is all about "the latest thing", whatever that is. Yet, a band like U2 or a performer like (eek!) Celine Dion puts out an album, and they sell really, really well, often outselling "the latest thing".

Long term fans like what they got before, and they will come back for it again. It is a reliable product, much like a well known restaurant or a high end wine producer. People relate that name to a quality product and don't shop past the idea that they are great.

Pornstars at some point get into this category. They collect fans, and over time they reach a sort of critical mass where anything they appear in will get better sales, often because of the fan base and the ability for certain girls to get more media and more attention for their products. Heck, Jenna gets at least partial mainstream media coverage, certainly good for her brand. Good for her too, because her looks certainly aren't helping her out anymore.

Star development is truly key in that regard.

[Head Boy]

Originally Posted by MrMaxwell

"Netpond is an environment where people are exposed to selling & marketing tips but there is nothing here about creating a product or brand."

Some of us try to create threads about marketing and market research, but we end up getting trashed by the supporters of the hoary old concepts. I'm a bit disappointed that nobody is interested in my thread about the possible decline in the role of the affiliate for example.

[MrMaxwell]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Ignore that this is porn for a second. Think about the music business. It is all about "the latest thing", whatever that is. Yet, a band like U2 or a performer like (eek!) Celine Dion puts out an album, and they sell really, really well, often outselling "the latest thing".

Long term fans like what they got before, and they will come back for it again. It is a reliable product, much like a well known restaurant or a high end wine producer. People relate that name to a quality product and don't shop past the idea that they are great.

Pornstars at some point get into this category. They collect fans, and over time they reach a sort of critical mass where anything they appear in will get better sales, often because of the fan base and the ability for certain girls to get more media and more attention for their products. Heck, Jenna gets at least partial mainstream media coverage, certainly good for her brand. Good for her too, because her looks certainly aren't helping her out anymore.

Star development is truly key in that regard.

You're making sense there.
I love a good reasonable and lucid post..

[boobman]

Why does eberyone bust on Paul, he got some good posts

[Head Boy]

Originally Posted by boobman

Why does eberyone bust on Paul, he got some good posts

He's god some pretty outdated ideas, and some of his latest ideas are based on the posts of other Netponders. It pisses me off a bit when he has a go at me and tries to tell everybody that I'm a know-nothing incompetent, and then a couple of months later, he puts forward my views as if he's always believed in them.

[_LB_]

The thing I think Paul misses is that selling porn is just the same as selling almost anything else. Its not special, its just a product like any other, and people who treat it differently tend to miss the point.

Selling is not just the process of filling a need, good sales technique is also creating a need and building on it. Its not enough to just sell 20 mins of porn to someone wanting 20 mins ... to build a successful business you need to be able to sell a 30 day membership, possibly a good value cross sale and up sell your customer. This is what a good site does ... and this is what separates the guys just struggling from payout to payout, and the ones who are making a good living. Its not different in most other industries, and there is no reason it shouldn't apply here.

Porn isn't special ... its just another product. I have no trouble selling at all, not because I like porn ... I don't like porn or any of the niches I promote ... I just understand the product and apply my sales skills to it. All this hoo-rah about having to be into what you sell is utter crap.

Funny that the 'big new thing' a couple of years ago ... the $10 or $5 memberships thing was a dud. You made less money in the end, and if paul wants to try and reinvent that then all power to him. He will take a pay cut just like the others did.

[Head Boy]

I don't think all products can be sold in the same way. For example selling a car is often selling an image, but selling the insurance on it is selling an overhead. People are happy to pay more for a car that is way above the spec they require, but they will often only pay for insurance that is less than they need.

Porn is often a secret sale, and there are some strange influences over purchase decisions. Ann Summers showed us that people would overpay for sub-standard quality, and her lingerie sales were affected when sexy gear went "mainstream". Surfers may not be able to buy pornsite memberships even if they wanted to, if their wives check their cc payments.

[MrMaxwell]

Originally Posted by _LB_

The thing I think Paul misses is that selling porn is just the same as selling almost anything else. Its not special, its just a product like any other, and people who treat it differently tend to miss the point.

Selling is not just the process of filling a need, good sales technique is also creating a need and building on it. Its not enough to just sell 20 mins of porn to someone wanting 20 mins ... to build a successful business you need to be able to sell a 30 day membership, possibly a good value cross sale and up sell your customer. This is what a good site does ... and this is what separates the guys just struggling from payout to payout, and the ones who are making a good living. Its not different in most other industries, and there is no reason it shouldn't apply here.

Porn isn't special ... its just another product. I have no trouble selling at all, not because I like porn ... I don't like porn or any of the niches I promote ... I just understand the product and apply my sales skills to it. All this hoo-rah about having to be into what you sell is utter crap.

Funny that the 'big new thing' a couple of years ago ... the $10 or $5 memberships thing was a dud. You made less money in the end, and if paul wants to try and reinvent that then all power to him. He will take a pay cut just like the others did.

I think that $5-$10 monthly memberships are just dumber than all hell.
If the surfer wants monthly access he'll pay the $30 or he ain't worth your time. The only way a $5/mo site would be any good is if it was selling the sets inside of the members area and/or had plenty of juicy upsells.

[_LB_]

Originally Posted by MrMaxwell

I think that $5-$10 monthly memberships are just dumber than all hell.
If the surfer wants monthly access he'll pay the $30 or he ain't worth your time. The only way a $5/mo site would be any good is if it was selling the sets inside of the members area and/or had plenty of juicy upsells.

Surfers don't think in terms of time, they think in terms of need. If they see a set that they just have to have they will pay whatever the membership fee is. A big misconception is that surfers actually give much thought to how long their membership is or it somehow influences their decision to buy. Surfers are driven by need first, then other factors such as price etc come into play.

[Head Boy]

Originally Posted by MrMaxwell

The only way a $5/mo site would be any good is if it was selling the sets inside of the members area and/or had plenty of juicy upsells.

There you have it, and the concept moved on. Why bother with the overhead of the $5 sales processing, when you can move the upsells into the pre-sale period.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by MrMaxwell

Sorry for my rambling- I am old

I think you're wasting your time. When you income depends on pushing 30 day memberships the thought that the guy you are pushing it to is not interested is scary.

If they have the right ststem why are they, mostly, moaning about people "stealing" their sign ups and traffic? It's not being stolen, it's being won over.