Quote of the year by Paul Markham:

[pam]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Paying me 50% of a $1 movie play isn't exactly going to make me a ton of money, I would have to hope that the guy comes back 70 times to equal a single $35 signup.

Yes, it will. PM me and I'll show you some stats. I began with a VOD theatre with 1 member and made $30 ish the first month.

I have more than 6,200 members right now, and I'm sure not everyone of them keeps buying, but many do, and the income goes up every single month. I chose a VOD company that updates frequently.

But, it's all how you market it. Rather than telling them they can see all the hairy woman movies they want, I emphasize they can also view movies in many other niches and fetishes they may be interested in ..

[Head Boy]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

If they have the right ststem why are they, mostly, moaning about people "stealing" their sign ups and traffic? It's not being stolen, it's being won over.

We moan about our signups being stolen because they are being stolen - it's the same as you moaning about your content being stolen when it's stolen.

We moan about signups being "won over" when it is won from the sponsor, and not from us.

I speak as an affiliate, but I wasn't sure if your post was directed at affiliates or sponsors.

[Dagwolf]

Originally Posted by MrMaxwell

"It's the industries insistence to sell a $30 x 30 day recurring membership to a guy looking for 20 minutes worth of porn that's killing the industry. Meet the customers needs before someone else does."

An excellen tpoint indeed.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

I think you're wasting your time. When you income depends on pushing 30 day memberships the thought that the guy you are pushing it to is not interested is scary.

If they have the right ststem why are they, mostly, moaning about people "stealing" their sign ups and traffic? It's not being stolen, it's being won over.

For the most part, memberships / sales are stolen not through better marketing, but rather through deception and lies. More often than not, they are then sold a 30 day membership to another site.

The very basics of ANY retail business is to bring them in for what they want, and then sell them what you want to sell. Why do you think when you go to a supermarket or retail store that they crowd all kinds of things like gum, magazines, and other items near the check out area? While you are standing in line, you are more likely to consider and pick up what you didn't come for in the first place.

Many stores put items on sale at or below their cost. It would seem to be a dumb business move, except they are hoping to sell more than just that product on a visit. Example, computer stores selling printers cheap and then selling you a massively overpriced cable to connect it to your PC (and would you like an extended guarantee with that?).

The porn business again isn't any different from the real world. From batteries to potato chips, they are packaged in groups or by weight. Even if you need 1 battery or only want a handful of chips, you end up buying a pack of 4 batteries or a full bag of chips. We don't typically sell a single scene from a movie, but sell access to the whole movie or a site filled with similar videos. We package enough stuff together to justify a price of $29.95 a month (or whatever) to make the business model function. The costs of obtaining and selling a single scene to a customer is the same as selling the entire movie or site, so why would you want to sell less? The full site access (or in many cases the multisite access) is a way get a larger part of a customers porn budget to come to your site and make you money.

Pam, I understand where you are coming from, but you are also addressing a relative niche market that is use to having to work hard to find what they want. They are not faced with endless selection. Consider the amount of teen porn out there to the amount of true hairy porn out there. When you get into a narrow niche like that, if you can lasso enough traffic, you will always have a very profitable business because the surfers are all but pre-sold coming in the door. (lucky girl!)

[MrMaxwell]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

For the most part, memberships / sales are stolen not through better marketing, but rather through deception and lies. More often than not, they are then sold a 30 day membership to another site.

The very basics of ANY retail business is to bring them in for what they want, and then sell them what you want to sell. Why do you think when you go to a supermarket or retail store that they crowd all kinds of things like gum, magazines, and other items near the check out area? While you are standing in line, you are more likely to consider and pick up what you didn't come for in the first place.

Many stores put items on sale at or below their cost. It would seem to be a dumb business move, except they are hoping to sell more than just that product on a visit. Example, computer stores selling printers cheap and then selling you a massively overpriced cable to connect it to your PC (and would you like an extended guarantee with that?).

The porn business again isn't any different from the real world. From batteries to potato chips, they are packaged in groups or by weight. Even if you need 1 battery or only want a handful of chips, you end up buying a pack of 4 batteries or a full bag of chips. We don't typically sell a single scene from a movie, but sell access to the whole movie or a site filled with similar videos. We package enough stuff together to justify a price of $29.95 a month (or whatever) to make the business model function. The costs of obtaining and selling a single scene to a customer is the same as selling the entire movie or site, so why would you want to sell less? The full site access (or in many cases the multisite access) is a way get a larger part of a customers porn budget to come to your site and make you money.

Pam, I understand where you are coming from, but you are also addressing a relative niche market that is use to having to work hard to find what they want. They are not faced with endless selection. Consider the amount of teen porn out there to the amount of true hairy porn out there. When you get into a narrow niche like that, if you can lasso enough traffic, you will always have a very profitable business because the surfers are all but pre-sold coming in the door. (lucky girl!)

Those supermarkets always make you walk past every aisle in the store in order to get to the essentials.. but it's acceptable, there, online someone will close you out or use their back button if you run them around even a little bit. Even if you bring them in because they need what they want, if you then go on and only offer them what you want to sell they'll either cancel, or worse, charge it on back..

This is not a conventional "retail" business.. not by any means. Packaging a bunch of crap they don't want and forcing it on the surfer isn't going to make them want to rebill.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by MrMaxwell

Those supermarkets always make you walk past every aisle in the store in order to get to the essentials.. but it's acceptable, there, online someone will close you out or use their back button if you run them around even a little bit. Even if you bring them in because they need what they want, if you then go on and only offer them what you want to sell they'll either cancel, or worse, charge it on back..

This is not a conventional "retail" business.. not by any means. Packaging a bunch of crap they don't want and forcing it on the surfer isn't going to make them want to rebill.

Nope, nor do I suggest packaging a bunch of what they don't want. But if a guy wants pornstars fucking, it is pretty easy to sell him the advantages of access to a site filled with the hottest pornstars in steamy, dripping wet sex scenes! I wouldn't try to sell him hairy teens, nor would I try to sell him gay porn.

But why should I limit myself to selling him the one 20 minute clip he wanted for $1 if I can sell him total site access for $30? As an affiliate, it's all about the money in my pocket. If I am going to sell him up to pulling out the credit card, why would I stop at $1, or worse, why would I guide him to a $1 sale instead of a $30 sale?

Last time I looked, $30 was greater than $1.

[pam]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Pam, I understand where you are coming from, but you are also addressing a relative niche market that is use to having to work hard to find what they want. They are not faced with endless selection. Consider the amount of teen porn out there to the amount of true hairy porn out there. When you get into a narrow niche like that, if you can lasso enough traffic, you will always have a very profitable business because the surfers are all but pre-sold coming in the door. (lucky girl!)

Well, I do have sites in other niches, but they aren't my central focus, but obviously they make cash or I'd trash them

One is a site I honestly don't market. No links up anywhere, yet it's making VOD sales every day because of the domain name.

I could have put up a full page ad and hoped for a $30 sale, but I'd rather get a small amount that builds and builds every day.

It's like Lilpixie's post on the 1:21 stats she has. She's making just $2 per signup but in 10 days did $530 worth of sales. Had she tried to push those people signing up for a $28 sale, she maybe would have had what, 1/10th of the sale?

[_LB_]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Nope, nor do I suggest packaging a bunch of what they don't want. But if a guy wants pornstars fucking, it is pretty easy to sell him the advantages of access to a site filled with the hottest pornstars in steamy, dripping wet sex scenes! I wouldn't try to sell him hairy teens, nor would I try to sell him gay porn.

But why should I limit myself to selling him the one 20 minute clip he wanted for $1 if I can sell him total site access for $30? As an affiliate, it's all about the money in my pocket. If I am going to sell him up to pulling out the credit card, why would I stop at $1, or worse, why would I guide him to a $1 sale instead of a $30 sale?

Last time I looked, $30 was greater than $1.

Very true, and essentially the same message I am trying to get across.

[will76]

Originally Posted by MrMaxwell

I think that what he means is that pushing a commitment, at $30/month, to surfers who are looking for just one set at a time, some variety every day is not going to work forever..

I'd say that it is NOT so much the PRICE but the perceived waste/commitment that turns most fools off to buying. You can see them saying, well, I don't need that site for a month, you can see them saying, fuck that rebilling shit, because they probably are scared that they might have to call their credit provider and admit to what they bought.

Why don't more sites let people join free with credit card and sell them individual content sets? I think that those VOD sites are a great idea, a great idea.

And once webcams are worth a shit there will be more personalized service at the cam sites - the cam sites and custom content and microniches will win out in the end once computers are good enough and bandwidth is plentiful enough (especially once household internet connections are worth a fuck- they're not, now, alot of broadband users still are between 128-1.5 and that really sucks)

That IS the problem if you ask me- other methods of delivery are all but superior in some ways.. once we're able to show a video to a surfer FULL SCREEN without it looking like shit.. and once people start buying larger monitors/using their PCs as home theatre systems.. that will really help (I realise that these things are already happening but I'm talking about when it is COMMONPLACE for your average surfer to have at least 10Mbps, big large screen, powerful CPU)


Sorry for my rambling- I am old

TWO HUGE FLAWS in his logic before it even gets started.

1. VERY VERY few sites force people to join for 30 days for $30. 98% of sites offer a Trial Membership, usually $2.95 for 3 days. So Paul is 100% WRONG. We are only forcing a surfer to spend $2.95 for 3 days. That's only $2.95 even if they only wanted to use it for 20 minutes and not the whole 3 days, it is still a bargin. How much cheaper do you think it should be sold to meet their needs .99 ?

Paul's solution to this is a $4.95 a month membership for 30 days. PAUL??? you said the surfer only wants 20 mins so we give them 2 DAYS for $2.95. You trying to make them spend more ($4.95) for 30 days. Why do they want 30 days, they only want 20 mins, you not meeting their needs Paul. What is currently in place is a better deal ($2.95) then what you are offering ($4.95).

2. I don't think Paul believes his own shit too much since he still charges $30 for 30 days on his own site. If he really felt this was the way to go wouldn't he change his own site to the " better way" to meet the surfer's needs ???

[pam]

Very few sites in my niche have trials. The few that do aren't quality sites. The higher quality sites have full months only, though my 2nd best sponsor charges $19.95 per month and pays me just 50%, but the multiple sales a day and rebills forever make it worthwhile over those $35 PPS.

I'd say probably, in my experience (and that's running review sites covering every niche and fetish), 60% of sites offer trials.

But you bring up a good point that was overlooked in the other thread, and without bashing/trashing -- Paul -- why do you still offer 30 days access for $30 and not 20 minutes worth if your research indicates that's ALL surfers want?

[will76]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Perhaps as a paysite owner. As an affiliate, unless I truly believe that the customer will keep coming back and buying over and over again, I just want to see the money.

If a program is convinced they will make mondo dollars with a new client, pay me and I will walk away, and you can do what you like with your client.

Paying me 50% of a $1 movie play isn't exactly going to make me a ton of money, I would have to hope that the guy comes back 70 times to equal a single $35 signup.

Welcome to Netpond


I posted this on another board a few months ago. It is somewhat relivant to the conversation in this thread in regards to what can an affiliate do to build a customer base even though he is advertising another program.


This applies mainly to affiliates.

I started off as a membership site owner, spent countless hours updating the sites, adding more content, paying for plugins, dealing with members, etc.. After realizing all the time I put in just to provide a product to sell vs the amount of money I was making from advertising other people's sites, it seemed like a no brainer to switch over to being an 100% affiliate. Now instead of spending 20 - 30 hours a week on maintaining my membership sites I had that much more time to spend on advertising and getting more traffic. This made me a lot more money. Thankfully I was 100% away from my membership sites a couple years before ibill went under, so I only lost about 50K from old rebills. If I would have been going 100% strong with my sites right up until they went under I would have lost well over a million dollars, so I lucked out there.

Where I went wrong....

When I was promoting my own membership sites I was building something of value. As I made money from them they built a membership base. The more popular they became the more my membership base grew and the more my site was recognized on the net. So not only did I directly make money from my advertising (10 sales that day say I made = $300 etc...) but I built "x" amount of value into my site as my membership base got bigger. If I would have grown my site to have 1000 active members not only would I have been making 35K a month, but I would have a site worth a lot more then that if I chose to sell it.

When I switched over to being 100% an affiliate, for the most part I used single pages or small sites built around that sponsor... I didn't put any effort into trying to retain people or build up the page/site I was using, I was happy getting sign ups from the traffic i sent to it. Fatal Flaw. Here I am busting my ass, making really good money, but at the end of the day, what did I have? A nice check and that was about it. I had nothing of value. I had grossed over a million in sales the year before just to clickcash but i had nothing of value. nothing. No site like hoes.com or a tgp that had 500K hits a day etc.. i had zero to show for it except for the checks I was being sent. I had sent in tens of thousands of customers to another site to build up that sites value but I gave those same people no reason to come back to my site nor did I offer them anything different for sale on my site in the future if they did come back. Basically it was a one shot deal, I got the traffic, tossed it to the sponsor and hoped the signed up, if they didn't then that was it.

I always prided myself on the ability to make money off of everything I did and I totally missed the boat on that one aspect. It finally hit me one day, why not make the same amount of money but build value in your sites at the same time. Some simple things to do this would be to add a forum, add blogs that update everyday, give people a reason to use your site and to want to come back and use your site over and over again. Get creative, there are many ways to do this but the point being is don't just make a site to make money, but build a site you are making money from. Be innovative, grow with your site, give the people a reason to come back and buy other things from you, etc...

That's my advice, if you are an affiliate build value in something while you making money from it. As simple as it sounds, I can't be the only person that didn't realize this. I think back now, if I would have been sending all my traffic to a site like hoes.com it would not only be as popular if not bigger then his, I would have something of value worth a good bit of money. It woud be like the icing on the cake ( the cakes being all those nice checks i got every week.)

[Tuula]

Originally Posted by Bacteria

how many short doses of porn are around that cost fuck all ! millions

this isnt what buying a membership is about . has he gone I Pod crazy .

Exactly, people don't want memberships to watch 20 mins of porn they want memberships because of the porn as well as the other features that are included with the benefits of being a MEMBER. Eg. live cam shows with the models - the very idea of bring able to actually interact with their favorite porn star is a HUGE reason why alot of guys buy full memberships in the first place. Then there's the possibility of actually meeting and being able to fuck their favorite porn star too, like Sabrina Deep offers, you can't just get that opportunity by finding some clip off some tube site etc.

Membership has it's privileges!

[hardcoreblogger]

Originally Posted by will76

Paul's solution to this is a $4.95 a month membership for 30 days. PAUL??? you said the surfer only wants 20 mins so we give them 2 DAYS for $2.95. You trying to make them spend more ($4.95) for 30 days. Why do they want 30 days, they only want 20 mins, you not meeting their needs Paul. What is currently in place is a better deal ($2.95) then what you are offering ($4.95).

there are lots of 1$ trials and FREE trials too

[will76]

Originally Posted by pam

Very few sites in my niche have trials. The few that do aren't quality sites. The higher quality sites have full months only, though my 2nd best sponsor charges $19.95 per month and pays me just 50%, but the multiple sales a day and rebills forever make it worthwhile over those $35 PPS.

I'd say probably, in my experience (and that's running review sites covering every niche and fetish), 60% of sites offer trials.

But you bring up a good point that was overlooked in the other thread, and without bashing/trashing -- Paul -- why do you still offer 30 days access for $30 and not 20 minutes worth if your research indicates that's ALL surfers want?

I know the vast majority of the larger sponsors offer trials. The same ones that own 100's of sites. Some smaller niche focused, individually owned and opperated sites might not offer trials, but the VAST majority of people who are signing up to sites are doing so to sites that offer trial memberships.

I don't understand how Paul can go on and on ( and he has been saying this several times for months) that we force surfers to spend $30 a month for 20 mins of porn, when he keeps neglecting the trial membership. I have brought this up before to him and i guess he missed it. It blows up his whole argument. We are catering to the surfers needs, if he only wants j/o material then he does the trial for $2.95, spends 2 mins, 20 mins, or 2 hours, or hell 2 days jerking off then he cancels and it only cost him $2.95. Paul, what is wrong with that ?

[will76]

Originally Posted by hardcoreblogger

there are lots of 1$ trials and FREE trials too

There isn't too many free ones, but you are right there are even better deals than $2.95 for 3 days.


BUT, what Paul FAILS to understand is that it isn't the price of the membership that matters to lots of people now, it is paying .. period.

People today are more inclinded to get porn for FREE. In the past a 30 second clip didn't cut it, now there is tons of FREE 1 hour+ videos out there, legaly Free content, and copyrighted content that shouldn't be out there. Either way it is out there and MILLIONS of people know about it. Paul, go look at Alexa and type in megarotic.com and yourporn.com and even pornotube.com look at their graph for the last 1 year. BTW two of those sites, in 1 years time went from nothing to top 50 sites on alexa.

thousands of people every day who used tgps are finding out about tubes and torrent sites. In the past you had a chance to make money off of the people on TGPS because they were only given short clips, but how do you sell someone a membership to your site when your entire site is listed for free all over the net? It doesn't matter if you offer them $1 membership, why pay anything when you can get it for free. That's the point Paul.

Megarotic.com is meeting the surfer's needs. How? they are basically stealing your content and giving it away for free. Good luck competing with that.

You should be more concerned with offering something for sale that people can't steal then trying to guess the right price to sell a membership for or the length of time to give them access. Unless your price is free, you are not going to compete... until you offer something they have to pay to get access to ( interraction, live cams, forums, model diaries, weekly cam shows, etc..)

[MrMaxwell]

Originally Posted by will76

TWO HUGE FLAWS in his logic before it even gets started.

1. VERY VERY few sites force people to join for 30 days for $30. 98% of sites offer a Trial Membership, usually $2.95 for 3 days. So Paul is 100% WRONG. We are only forcing a surfer to spend $2.95 for 3 days. That's only $2.95 even if they only wanted to use it for 20 minutes and not the whole 3 days, it is still a bargin. How much cheaper do you think it should be sold to meet their needs .99 ?

Paul's solution to this is a $4.95 a month membership for 30 days. PAUL??? you said the surfer only wants 20 mins so we give them 2 DAYS for $2.95. You trying to make them spend more ($4.95) for 30 days. Why do they want 30 days, they only want 20 mins, you not meeting their needs Paul. What is currently in place is a better deal ($2.95) then what you are offering ($4.95).

2. I don't think Paul believes his own shit too much since he still charges $30 for 30 days on his own site. If he really felt this was the way to go wouldn't he change his own site to the " better way" to meet the surfer's needs ???

No.. my logic isn't flawed, I did not mention but I am aware of trials- but that is what they all cost- mostly all of them- $30/mo.

[pam]

Well, Paul asked several times in another thread why we are losing sales and traffic to the tube and torrent sites.

If you can't figure out that tube and torrent sites are free and our paysites aren't .....