Why do we accept shaving?

[fresh]

Originally Posted by BadWolf

Actually, it's been talked about to death.

Again and again and again. And I never see proof, just accusations.

did you read spacash drama? They did not deny it, stands as a proof to me

[BadWolf]

If you mean the thread over at Green Guy and Jim's board from last year, yes, I read it. I don't know the webmaster involved but I do remember Spacash had told him he had too many canceled sales. The webmaster also complained he didn't get paid for all his sales.

I don't remember the sponsor saying, yes, we shave. I can remember quite a few threads like this about quite a few sponsors, none of whom are regarded as sponsors who shave.

I'd want more than one webmaster coming forward before I mark a sponsor off as shaving.

I don't promote Spacash, btw.

[GerardX]

A proof of shaving is sth basic. Every Sponsor can be accussed of shaving... It's very simple to create a thread on some Board... If you'll get somebody by the balls - post the proof - they'll have serious problems - that's for sure... We can suspect some things but... that's all actually... If you don't like some Sponsor/Company and you think that they shave - just don't promote them - simple as that... There's a lot of great Sponsors on the market nowadays so you can choose between them... Good luck !

[RageCash-Ben]

Originally Posted by Head Boy

Why do sponsors need to shave when they can rip off affiliates with leaks and signup diversions?

It is so obvious that you have never run a program and likely never will. It is fun to play devils advocate but when you make a career out of it it gets boring really fast.

As a webmaster who also works for a program I resent these types of statements. Do you have ANY idea of the amount of webmaster fraud programs deal with every single day? Of course you don't.

Tours and every aspect of the signup process are visible to any webmaster who chooses to send traffic. If you do not like what you see do not send traffic.

[nottslad]

Originally Posted by RageCash-Ben

...
Tours and every aspect of the signup process are visible to any webmaster who chooses to send traffic. If you do not like what you see do not send traffic.

Can't say fairer than that, imho.

[teentime]

Put an end to shaving:

Mr CCBill please build an affiliate module.

1-You charge a small percentage of each sale for the affiliate to use the module. (incentive to build it, worth millions me thinks)
2-Affiliates install module on each site/domain
3-Module makes the sale be processed by the affiliates site/domain first then forwarded to program owner second.
4-Affiliate knows (controls) sale is made.
5-Affiliate makes money
6-Program owner makes money
7-CCbill makes more money

Good for every one Affiliates wouldn't shave themselves.
Same rules of fraud detection, charge backs etc etc...only through affiliate first.

Every time I think of how affiliates do not control their own cash registers, I imagine Sam Walton sitting in heaven and laughing at us.

Now I'm sure there are 101 reasons you can think of not to implement a system like this, but I can think of millions and millions of rea$on$ why CCBill or NATS should build a system like this.
I for one would gladly give up a reasonable percentage to have access to a no cheat system for selling like this.

We have the technology! (pardon the cliché )

[gecko]

Originally Posted by Kamilla

That's because we as affiliates don't have access to program admins. So ofcource that makes it hard to prove. All you can do is go with your gut feeling.

Exactly, we have no proof of knowing.. if you know you're not making enough with your traffic just move on

[Dupont]

No proof, but at the end of the day. Whatever sponsor is making you the most money, you stick with

[hawkadu]

well I think shaving really exists. Especially with the tricky revshare and pps thing as kamilla said. I completely agree with her.

I had dropped a sponsor whom I was converting at 1:700 stabely for a year, they introduced pps and I jumped on that model to make quick cash and ratios turned to 1:2300 suddenly. This was unbelievable and I had no choice except to drop them. I BELIEVE that they were shaving in some way. Ratios can't go that bad suddenly with the same traffic, same things!!!!!!!!

I remember and respect the words of LB that don't expect a trend If you are not sending big hits to a sponsor but after 7-8 months of pretty good ratios, I was really surprised and shocked with my 1:2300. I was a newbie (and still I am) and dropped them and moved on...

I know I won't be able to solve this mystrey, but there is some secret in REVSHARE and PPS thingy. If you want to fuck you ratios yourself, you with PPS. That's totally based on my own experience with two sponsors.

[Kamilla]

Originally Posted by RageCash-Ben

As a webmaster who also works for a program I resent these types of statements. Do you have ANY idea of the amount of webmaster fraud programs deal with every single day? Of course you don't.

I deal with cheaters on a daily basis since I run toplists and other traffic trades. It doesn't give me the right or excuse to cheat those that buy traffic from my ppc se.

Leaks on tours means affiliates don't get credit for all their traffic. I will never like that and will always speak up about it. But unfortunally, most programs does it and finding leakfree tours is next to impossible these days.

[Kamilla]

Originally Posted by hawkadu

well I think shaving really exists. Especially with the tricky revshare and pps thing as kamilla said. I completely agree with her.

I had dropped a sponsor whom I was converting at 1:700 stabely for a year, they introduced pps and I jumped on that model to make quick cash and ratios turned to 1:2300 suddenly. This was unbelievable and I had no choice except to drop them. I BELIEVE that they were shaving in some way. Ratios can't go that bad suddenly with the same traffic, same things!!!!!!!!

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. They claim to offer PPS but most likey offer PPA - you won't get credit unless the trial signup converts into a full membership. Again, we affiliates can only speculate.
Not sure though if this would be called shaving or misslabeling lol

[pam]

Originally Posted by Rofl

Anyone know HOW they got caught? Just out of interest...

Yes. They had their backend wide open without a password and someone typed in the URL and saw their stats with a column showing the shaved sales. I saw the screenshot as did thousands of others, and they weren't Photoshopped. The owner disappeared right after that and if I'm not mistaken, had already closed another program for the same issues or similar issues.

Why do we deal with it? You need proof it's being done. There are some strange things with one of my sponsors but I can't PROVE they are shaving -- I just have a bad feeling

[signupdamnit]

I don't accept it. In my experience the ones who play such games are often the first ones who will run off not paying you or doing other things. You can't trust them.

Also here is probably a good place to mention this. I recently joined a lot of niche ccbill programs. I found a lot of the following:

1. Sites which have blatant traffic leaks which are uncredited to the affiliate. Common were clips4sale, aebn, as well as the webmaster's other sites of which are uncredited to the affiliate.

2. Programs which have rebills secretly set to zero so the affiliate will not get credit for any rebills on the 50% revshare program.

3. CCbill cookies set drastically under the default three day duration. Common was 24 hours. I even found one which was only a few hours.

4. Multiple processors on the join form (the affiliate only gets credit for ccbill joins)

5. One program even went ahead and set up their own ccbill ID on the warning page. In this way if your ccbill cookie gets set and the surfer comes back their own ccbill cookie will overwrite yours and they get the sale.

You need to watch yourself. Especially as revenue dries up. More sponsrs will be looking for ways to keep their profits up and some might just go to the dark side so to speak.

[Kamilla]

Originally Posted by Greg B

signupdammit, that's some serious data!

I was just beginning to set up massive traffic for my CC Bill affiliates I've joined over the years. Now you have me concerned. ha sanyone else seen similar data as signupdammit has posted?

Yes, what signupdammit said sounds familiar and I have read that before and some of the stuff (especially the leaks) I know first hand.
Good thing that you can check the rebill amount in your ccbill affiliate admin.

[bobby666]

i have shaved my legs this morning ....

[hardcoreblogger]

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

I don't accept it. In my experience the ones who play such games are often the first ones who will run off not paying you or doing other things. You can't trust them.

Also here is probably a good place to mention this. I recently joined a lot of niche ccbill programs. I found a lot of the following:

1. Sites which have blatant traffic leaks which are uncredited to the affiliate. Common were clips4sale, aebn, as well as the webmaster's other sites of which are uncredited to the affiliate.

2. Programs which have rebills secretly set to zero so the affiliate will not get credit for any rebills on the 50% revshare program.

3. CCbill cookies set drastically under the default three day duration. Common was 24 hours. I even found one which was only a few hours.

4. Multiple processors on the join form (the affiliate only gets credit for ccbill joins)

5. One program even went ahead and set up their own ccbill ID on the warning page. In this way if your ccbill cookie gets set and the surfer comes back their own ccbill cookie will overwrite yours and they get the sale.

You need to watch yourself. Especially as revenue dries up. More sponsrs will be looking for ways to keep their profits up and some might just go to the dark side so to speak.

this is serious stuff. while i don't promote any programs with the obvious huge leaks (yes there are lots of them) your other findings might explain why most ccbill sponsors convert like shit for me. how do you check on the cookie durations?

[signupdamnit]

Originally Posted by hardcoreblogger

this is serious stuff. while i don't promote any programs with the obvious huge leaks (yes there are lots of them) your other findings might explain why most ccbill sponsors convert like shit for me. how do you check on the cookie durations?

Credit to Jel who suggsts an easy way:

http://www.netpond.com/adult-webmast...ml#post1744160

signupdammit, that's some serious data!

If you count minor leaks nearly 40% of the ccbill programs I saw had them. If you count only the other stuff, less than 10%.

What I take from this is that normally a lot of these guys would simply set the shave-o-matic, but since it is ccbill they were forced to come up with another way. One which is more easily caught. It made me go hmmmm.

Something to think about with a non-ccbill sponsor, even if the cookie length SET is 255 days, this doesn't mean their internal system will still READ that cookie AND give you credit. You have no way of knowing and you must trust them. Trust and integrity is especially important for non-ccbill sponsors.

[Kamilla]

Another thing is to actually check the source code on the affiliate landing pages. I found a huge company party-poker.com to have a script that will change the aff. ref id to their own, if the click came from google. Meaning, if the affiliate has done good SEO work and gotten his/hers link indexed in google, they will steal those referals!
I complained about it as well as been posting on boards. I never got a response from PP, and today their source code is encrypted...

[neak]

Originally Posted by Kamilla

Another thing is to actually check the source code on the affiliate landing pages. I found a huge company party-poker.com to have a script that will change the aff. ref id to their own, if the click came from google. Meaning, if the affiliate has done good SEO work and gotten his/hers link indexed in google, they will steal those referals!
I complained about it as well as been posting on boards. I never got a response from PP, and today their source code is encrypted...

Maybe we should start a thread about sponsors like this, something for people to look out for. That sounds like a huge breach of trust to me.

[Kamilla]

Originally Posted by neak

Maybe we should start a thread about sponsors like this, something for people to look out for. That sounds like a huge breach of trust to me.

This is one of those threads lol
Almost all sponsors have leaks on their tours. It has become common practize. You will see affiliates actually defend this practize when reading various threads on this board! I have asked these affiliates numerous times why it's ok for a sponsor not to give credit fo