Do You Pay The Model Before Or After The Shoot?

[scrabble]

Let’s say you’re going to hire some models in a pretty shifty Asian country for some promo videos and photos, what is standard practice. 50% before 50% after? All of it after?

I’ve never hired a hooker before but I know the very few strip clubs I’ve been in you pay the lady for the dance first.

Speaking of when is it customary to pay a hooker? Only after you have cum to insure a good work performance?

The problem I have is that the models are saying we won’t perform as well if we get paid after then if we get paid before.

Those who know what do you think ?

[thebes]

Can't say what other people do, but with models I have paid them afterwards when they sign the release. This is for softcore fetish stuff and I know the models already.

With an escort, around here, it is customary to give them an envelope with money at the start of a session. If they trust you they don't get tacky and count it until you leave, but thats normally if you are a regular. Or so I heard from an escort I know.

I've never done biz in "shifty Asian countries". I always find any business I do is best if there is an on-going business relationship rather than a single transaction. I suspect that these things vary a lot with location and the class of your model or hooker.

[LezGeri]

Well, I'll give you my opinion based on some related experience.

Originally Posted by scrabble

The problem I have is that the models are saying we won’t perform as well if we get paid after then if we get paid before.

Considering the sort of girls you are talking about they are more often than not telling you the truth when they tell you this.

Most of these girls will all have had bad experiences, either first hand or through other girls they know, with men who've refused payment after they have been given a good service.

Money up front will make the girls feel much happier and relaxed, and therefore much more free to be sexual, rather than worrying about whether this guy is going to pay them. If a girl is worried about being ripped-off it's almost certainly going to show on her face and in her body language.

You, on the other hand, are clearly concerned that if they have their money already then they don't have an incentive to do a good job. But you'd be wrong there in most cases. They do have an incentive. Because I can tell you that nearly all girls who work as hookers/escorts want to have regular, reliable clients. Most girls don't want to be looking for new customers all the time - it's a hassle full of potential risks and problems.

And that is the basic situation with these girls. You pay them upfront for a porno shoot (50% at least) and they will try to give you a good show, because they are hoping you will pay them to do more shoots for you in the future.

So I suggest that you pay new girls their agreed fee upfront with the promise that if they do a really good job they will get lots more work from you. And if they do a good job why wouldn't you want to give them at least a bit more work?

[scrabble]

Thanks that makes a lot of sense. Thats probably the best answer yet to any question I've ever asked here. It was both helpful and related. Thanks (^.o) both of you.

[ManilaMan]

I would be very careful of the authorities in whatever country you are in

example here in the phils, They are always busting internet chat rooms with cam girls, and it is huge news, they portray the girls as victims of the greedy foreigners, who is basically
using them as sex slaves. and the owners if they can find them , get hit for big bucks and threatened with huge jail time for violating the trafficking in people act

now if its just a photo shoot, I guess u can get away with it, if you are careful but be careful what you say, be very discreet, do not talk much about it around town, make sure to get the girls to sign a release etc etc etc

watch your back basically,. something like this would make a big juicy news story and the cops would just love to bust a foreigner for taking advantage of the poor girls and putting them in a porn movie shoot etc, very scandalous story that the news stations or newspapers would love to report

anything that the authorities feel reflects badly on the Philippines, would be viewed very harshly by the cops...........................and this would definitely fit into that category

so be very discreet if its in this country, and if you are in the Phils, whatever you do, make sure the girls are happy when they leave and do not feel cheated in any way. and that they have been treated respectfully. It is too easy to go to the cops and say, oh that guy raped me and took a video of it, etc etc...............................that is a situation you do not want to be in, believe me

when the one girl accused a US marine of rape a few years back, it was a HUGE ....and I do mean HUGE, international story, and it caused the USA to cancel all future military excercises in the Phils, because of the perceived bias court system, and media coverage etc.

thats why i say, tread lightly its a potential firecracker situation if something were to go wrong and u piss off the wrong person

i guess if you get the girl from a bar, a lot of this risk can be minimized, but NEVER try to get a girl off the street or in a mall..............NEVER..........too easy for a setup situation

[rvince]

1- do the paperwork (you don't want to waste 2h shooting an hardcore scene only to find out afterwards that one of the performers don't want to sign; you'd still have to pay the other performers/location/...)
2- do the shoot
3- pay.
If that can make the model feel better show her/him at step 1 that you do have the cash to pay.

While LezGeri may be right regarding the "amateur" (ie: non-escort) models, as far as escorts are concerned, once they have the cash in hand the only thing that matter to them is : "Get out of here as fast as possible." Yes, it may make sense for them to try to get a reliable stream of income, but they know that this business is filled with 80% of guys who try to get a better price because they promise them "to make them work often" after... but so few photographers follow up on their promises that their interest is to make as much cash ASAP.

[pam]

I pay to fly in my models and I pay for their housing/food. So, I don't have to reimburse them or pay them upfront for those costs.

They sign the release and provide 2 forms of photo ID and one non-form of photo ID when they arrive at my videographer's place.

They do the video and photo shoot (over a period of days) and then are paid the amount we agreed upon.

I've never hired a hooker so would have no idea how you would deal with them.

ONE time a model asked for payment upfront for a test photo shoot, and I said no way. We don't pay for a test shoot, period. My videographer felt bad for the poor college girl with a sob story and paid her $75 for a roll of film.

When it was close to the time for her to do the video, she changed her mind.

[Georgie]

Personally I wouldn't work with escorts or hookers. I prefer to work with models who have at least some experience in front of a camera, but if they are brand new, that can also work (but with more effort), but I still avoid hookers, strippers, or anyone else in that field. Their performance more often than not isn't up to par.

On a shoot I show them the money up front when they sign the first part of the release (real name, stage names, etc.). At that time I get their ID. At the end of the shoot, I pay their fee, and they sign the last part of the release that indicates they have been paid in full and that the shoot has concluded to everyone's satisfaction.

Though a little OT, I don't believe in freebie "test shoots," and in fact I advise models I work with and know to never accept these kinds of assignments. Her time is worth something, even if it's a $50 or $75 fee for showing up. The problem with free "test shoots" is that there are a lot of scumbags out there (I'm sure you're not one of them, Pam) where they actually use the shoot and never pay for it.

It's an old trick, older than any of us here, and as professionals in this business we shouldn't be condoning this kind of activity. Consider the test shoot fee an investment you're willing to lose if she doesn't work out. If you think it'll be money down the drain then you're hunch is probably right, in which case you shouldn't have her in for the test to begin with.

[Ketchup]

Scrabble you asshole , stay off my youtube....you have no business posting any negative comments on my videos....I don't give a shit if you think I'm creepy or not. You can clearly see I am trying to make money through youtube promotion just like you are with ladyboyloads.com I would never post anything negative about any of your shit.

Show some respect for yourself and your domain.

I was 100 times more offended that you are a webmaster here and you have the nerve to post some negative shit about someone else doing the same business as you

You idiot.

[pam]

Wow. Sounds like a hell of a backstory there.

Georgie, no, I'd never not pay a model. But if I am paying you more than twice anyone else does for a video, and it's ONLY r-rated with no sex, and I'm paying for your air fare and your hotel and meals, well, you can bite the bullet and not expect additional payment for a test shoot that takes half an hour at best

[mikesinner]

I'm not sure about porn models but I know most sex workers want the money up front. When it comes to escorts the girl will want the money in an envelope but she won't count it. This leads to some girls getting ripped off but at least they stay out of jail.

[Meat]

Originally Posted by thebes

Can't say what other people do, but with models I have paid them afterwards when they sign the release

should never get model release signed after you have taken pics

first thing u do when they walk in is sign release, check age id and pay them and film the whole process.

[Georgie]

Originally Posted by pam

I'm paying for your air fare and your hotel and meals, well, you can bite the bullet and not expect additional payment for a test shoot that takes half an hour at best

Pam, I know you know what you're doing, but perhaps the main reason to pay a model *something* is so that the consent form is valid. (This is not legal advise, or course, just an observation of being in the photog biz since the 70s.)

Hotel, airfare, and meals may not be looked upon as valuable consideration in return to secure a properly executed release from the model. These expenses are not for the benefit of the model; that is, he/she would not have these expenses were it not for the shoot itself. To ensure all the t's are crossed, the valuable consideration should be for the benefit of the model alone. Your paying direct expenses is merely a convenience for the model, and not strictly consideration.

The old gimmick was to pay a buck to make the contract valid, but these days I think it's safer to pitch in $20, $50, or (what I do) $100.

I guess I'm fortunate that I live in an area (SoCal) so replete with qualified models. While I usually invite my models to dinner or lunch, as a friendly courtesy, I'm grateful I don't have to pay these kinds of additional expenses.

[thebes]

Originally Posted by Meat

should never get model release signed after you have taken pics

first thing u do when they walk in is sign release, check age id and pay them and film the whole process.

Hmmm... Interesting advice and I can see the point of it. In the past all of my models have been very well known to me, but if I ever find one off of craigslist or the like I will certainly do this. Might be a good reason to keep my old mini-cam that's really too substandard for even B roll shots.

[pam]

Originally Posted by Georgie

Pam, I know you know what you're doing, but perhaps the main reason to pay a model *something* is so that the consent form is valid. (This is not legal advise, or course, just an observation of being in the photog biz since the 70s.)

I've had models who weren't paid and solely wanted their photos to appear in print. The model release was rewritten to state they were not being paid.

Why would no money make a consent form invalid?

[Georgie]

Originally Posted by pam

Why would no money make a consent form invalid?

Not invalid, just not as easily defendable. Most model agreements contain the wording "for good and valuable consideration," which is added protection to make it a binding contract. (As you know, in a contract both sides must give something to take something.) Money is the most common consideration, but it's not the only kind. It can also be such things as free prints in exchange for a free shoot.

Having the pictures appear in a publication may or may not be valuable consideration. That would be up to someone's interpretation. Judges have to decide that sort of thing, whereas money is universal. Everyone knows the intent when you exchange $ for some service.

[pam]

I don't ever, EVER publish the photos from a test shoot, no matter how good they may be. I sign an agreement given to the model stating as such.

So, not paying them should have no bearing on anything. No one sees the photos but me and my videographer. So it would never, ever end up in court.

[Hammer]

What? You mean you can't kick them out of the van without paying them when they're done and drive away laughing?

[Georgie]

Originally Posted by pam

I don't ever, EVER publish the photos from a test shoot, no matter how good they may be.

I dunno; this seems limiting. Your time and your photogs time is worth some money, so you're already out that. Even a $100 in cash as an advance (you pay more if they are published) would at least allow you to recoup some of your costs if the set is good and you find a buyer for it.

We used to regularly swap nude (cheesecake back in the day) shoots for headshots and comps. Most of the models coming in were aspiring starlets, and they couldn't afford the $50 sitting fee let alone the replication cost for the comp sheets. About 90% of the time we couldn't use their sets, but that one in ten gem more than paid for our time, film, and darkroom costs. If a model's set sold, we usually called her back in for paid set. IOW, it worked out for everyone.

[pam]

Oh, you're talking about taking pics and selling them?

I don't do that.

I do a photo shoot with my models as part of a video shoot. We do a test video as well but no one sees those but me and my videographer. A model who looks good may not be good at speaking, and that's a vital part of my videos.

I'll sell a few single photos of a model but I charge magazine rates.