Trademarks Need To Be Put To Rest

[Toker]

With the pissing contest going on either nobody learns anything
or what they do learn is harmful.
I don't know everything and never said I did. BUT when I do get
involved in something I look at it from all 4 sides.

To start with HB said something that should be retained..
He said QUOTE "be careful with domain names that include trademarks.
Toker, you and I can probably try using them, and we'd know when
and how to duck out, but a newbie could get himself
into trouble, so it's probably best if they steer clear of them until they
get some domaining experience."

The reason we can use them isn't a 3 day study course but a few
paragraph explanation on the subject..
Those of you that wouldn't reg a domain over a TM issue after this
post are in the 8 of 10 people in this Bizzz that need to keep your
day job.
If truth were known only 1 in 10 people in this Bizzz are making
good $$$ in it if that many.

First let me say this Bizzz isn't like any other net venture!
We buy Domains to resell, not to build a site on for the future
and spend hours building it and good bucks to buy the domain
only to lost it down the line.

FACT, If you grabbed SonyCloseOuts.com and used the
name to get traffic and they found out about it
You're NOT going to wake up in the middle of the
night with a swat team in ya bedroom putting leg Irons and cuffs on ya.

I have Zap2.info, Zap-2.info, ChicagoBearsSite.com, yahoobuckeroo.com, bengoogled.com,
aol-error.com, prius.in, shop-nascar.com to name a few questionable TMs!

What I would do is park them with a sale price at least 2 times
what I'd take for the domain.
Then I'd add something like Google Adwords, then load the keywords
and Metas and wait for the SE bots to pick it up and pocket from $10
bucks to $100 a week click bucks.
If the TM owner learned about it and didn't like it either My Host or
I would get a nice letter from a Lawyer saying I'm infringing on his
clients TM and to STOP!
Actually cease & desist from further use of it and give ya from 24 to
48 hours to take it down.
IF you really think their TM doesn't cover the C & D ya do what HB
did and tell them to Fuck Off..
Now if they have any brains and realize you might have a case
they'll try to Buy it from ya to keep from having a court case.

If you do what I usually do ya pull the domain down and put
a redirect link on the url and send the traffic to another of ya
parked Domains.
By now ya made a few hundred off a $6.95 investment so who
cares if ya yank it..

And if someone wants to buy it ya make even more off
the $6.95 expendature.
And the buyer wants to put a site on it, well before anyone spends
good bucks it's his job to check on it from BLs to TMs.

I could park 5 domains with an adword clickpay for the total
amount of $3.00 for all.
These two Zap-2.info * Zap2.info had a 60 cent price on
them so my total cost is $1.20 if I dumped them next month.
It's actually a Win Win situtation...

As I mentioned we really don't have to give a damn about TDs,
We're not buying the domain for a long turn site that we could
lose after alot of work and money.
Nor are we going to get into any trouble using it as long as
we comply with the C & D request which won't come till we made
a good buck on it from Clicks while it was parked so we take advantage
of the SE's listing till the C & D comes which might be never..

Do as ya wish but if nothing else remember, YOU'RE NOT going to
have anything at all happen unless ya don't comply. They HAVE
to notify ya and have to give ya time to take it down..
And if ya shitcan the domain it still only cost ya a few bucks..
It's not an earthshaking experience nor anything to be scared about.



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FIRST,

[Head Boy]

The domain business is very much like the property business. Most people buy property either as a home or as a base for their business. Some buy to let, and some buy to resell. There are developers and speculators as well.

Using trade mark names is a bit like setting up shop next door to a big name store. If you set up an off-licence next door to an unlicensed chinese restaurant, then you can both make money. If you set up a cut-price chinese restaurant to profit from the other guys advertising, then you could find your balls in the tongs.

Newbies would be better off using names for sites like the ones in LB's portal projects, and that way they would be building a capital asset as well as picking up some income. A lot of people lose a lot of money in trying to trade domain names.

[Head Boy]

OK - I've got to clear up a few things in Tokers post.

We buy Domains to resell, not to build a site on for the future

That's just one type of domainer, I buy domains as an investment and don't sell very many.

Those of you that wouldn't reg a domain over a TM issue after this
post are in the 8 of 10 people in this Bizzz that need to keep your
day job.

That isn't even true of domain speculators. Some of the most successful buy names for $100,000 and sell them for $500,000, and they aren't going to be ones with trademark issues. Or if they are (like Vernons.com), then they are prepared to spend several tens of thousands of dollars to defend their names.

I could park 5 domains with an adword clickpay for the total
amount of $3.00 for all.

I believe adwords insist on sites having good content rather than just a parking page. Aggregators like Sedo will refuse many names with TMs in them, and sometimes they can be quite strick about this. They refused one of my names which included what I thought was a standard dictionary word, but they allowed BBCdvds.com which surprised me.

Nor are we going to get into any trouble using it as long as
we comply with the C & D request which won't come till we made
a good buck on it from Clicks while it was parked

This isn't always true. There are a few companies that are starting to pursue offenders for compensation, and will push for bankruptcy if the offender can't pay the fines. From memory, I think this was the case in the Tesco prosecution, but I'd need to check to confirm this. The guy also lost all his adwords earnings and was banned from the programme. In some cases ICANN have pushed for the courts to bar TM abusers from owning domain names.

It's a real minefield, and a lot of people really do lose money in the domain biz. When Toker says he bought 10 names for $5, there is a good chance that the guy who sold them has lost money.

[Brujah]

A case of being careful who you choose to tangle with. Like most people you do business with in life too, it's probably good to avoid the more litigious types just to avoid the headache it might bring someday. Not just with domains but with using terms on your pages or urls', logos or content, etc...

[Toker]

Originally Posted by Head Boy

OK - I've got to clear up a few things in Tokers post.

That's just one type of domainer, I buy domains as an investment and don't sell very many.

That isn't even true of domain speculators. Some of the most successful buy names for $100,000 and sell them for $500,000, and they aren't going to be ones with trademark issues. Or if they are (like Vernons.com), then they are prepared to spend several tens of thousands of dollars to defend their names.

I believe adwords insist on sites having good content rather than just a parking page. Aggregators like Sedo will refuse many names with TMs in them, and sometimes they can be quite strick about this. They refused one of my names which included what I thought was a standard dictionary word, but they allowed BBCdvds.com which surprised me.

This isn't always true. There are a few companies that are starting to pursue offenders for compensation, and will push for bankruptcy if the offender can't pay the fines. From memory, I think this was the case in the Tesco prosecution, but I'd need to check to confirm this. The guy also lost all his adwords earnings and was banned from the programme. In some cases ICANN have pushed for the courts to bar TM abusers from owning domain names.

It's a real minefield, and a lot of people really do lose money in the domain biz. When Toker says he bought 10 names for $5, there is a good chance that the guy who sold them has lost money.

I don't have time to reply to ya right now..
But I will say I wan't talking about high dollar domains and
possible TM buys.

I also buy Domains for investments and don't sell them, renewed
close to 200 in the last 5 weeks.
BUT I also deal in cheap fast turn domains to cover my overhead.
Like 60 cent infos and $2.75 nets..

I'll deal with the rest later 2night or tomorrow morn..
1 quick comment, pursue offenders for compensation,
That is a court case and unaplicable unless a law is broken and that
doesn't happen untill you're informed you're using a TMed whatever
and Violate the C & D.
They C&D ya, you pull the domain and no law is broken so everyone
lives happily ever after..
Use of the TD isn't the breaking the law part, it's continuing use
after you've been ordered to STOP that induces the criminal intent!
Untill then ya simply didn't realize they had the TM and since there
are so many held that nobodys ever heard of it would be impossible
to know all of them, therefore a warning is manditory and reasonable
time to correct it before the handcuffs.
Latersssssssssssssssssssssss It's Pizza Time!

[Head Boy]

It's not just the law that matters here. You need to earn revenue from the names, and the TM holders may lean on your paymasters to can all your accounts. Chances are they have more influence than you, and it may only take a couple of emails.

[Toker]

Originally Posted by Head Boy

It's not just the law that matters here. You need to earn revenue from the names, and the TM holders may lean on your paymasters to can all your accounts. Chances are they have more influence than you, and it may only take a couple of emails.

I still only have a few secs..
But it is the law that matters.
Unless you fought it and wound up in court he could never get
any legal order to compel the paymaster to hold funds in
your acct. and give them to someone else.
And unless you violated a TOS along the way you could stir some
shit yourself if that happened.
As far as influence goes you're making money for that party
paying you, the TM beefer isn't..
If you obeyed the C&D his only recourse would be to take you
to Civil Court which takes years in the US and spend big bucks to
collect pennies in return on a hard case to win
In other words it's not worth it..
Also they don't like the publicity because it gives others ideas.

I think we're in the same book but on different pages...
You refer to Expensive Domains and ClickCash delivered
from the Mint!
I'd be the last person to spend good money on any Domain I
could lose in the future.
But I don't call Reg'n a $6.95 domain a big expendature, besides
when I pick them up they're $2.75 nets or 60 cent infos.
Plus they're not flagrent eyepoppers like Adobe1 or Xeroxpaper.

The intent of both threads hasn't been to have a legal boxing match
but to dispell the ideas that violating a TM is a hanging offence.

Anyone who doesn't check a few things, TDs being one of them when
paying good money for a domain to use or put on the shelf for later
as an investment shouldn't even be wasting their time here.

But from my view as someone who doesn't only buy a few
domains as an investment for the future but has a good nut to
pay every month I need to generate cash flow, if I had to go in
my pocket every month I'd spend more time fishing.
Therefore turning 60 cent infos and $2.75 nets with a few hundred
in ClickCash monthly I pay the nut and pick up 20 or 30 good Domains
to tuck-away for that rainy day.
It also gives me time to read up on what's going on in the world.
And when I see one of the largest media groups in the world branding
a new word I pay attention.
Zap2--------------- could be a household word in the future so why
wouldn't I pick up some Legal Domains to ride the wave.
The 100 bucks I have in it I can get back anytime or not lose much
BUT the Proffit that could turn up is endless.
By the way I did talk to a mouthpiece 2 weeks ago about TMs and
that's where half of my comments in this thread came from.
Check out The Site http://www.Zap2it.com
This is going to be a big time heavy traffic site soon.........

The owners and backers of the site are one of the largest newspapers
in the US, The Chicago Tribune.
And they're not just a Newspaper, Besides owning The Chicago Cubs
they own TV and Radio stations around the country including WGN
am and fm.
WGN TV is a major Independent network and is carried by Sat. and
all Cable Cos.
You can watch WGN in The Virgin Islands and almost everywhere
CNN or Turner affis are.
So if they keep promoting that domain which they will it'll
be interesting to say the least.

Back to the TMs, I agree with most of what you're saying, but as
I said the mention of TDs was more to emphizize the fact that it's
no big storm in the sky for most of us and not something to get
an ulcer over..

[Head Boy]

OK - here's a summary of what I believe to be the situation re:trademark domains, and I'll include any names containing an established business or site with them. You've got 3 options really -

Leave them alone, and this is the best option for most webmasters. If you want to get involved, you need to understand the law, and be articulate and persuasive. You also need to be prepared to lose and/or spend money.

Work with the trademark owner. This is the best option if you're determined to use tm names. You'll make the most money by promoting him, and you could get a lot of help. I make money from Netpond and Cash Uncovered domains. Meat knows this, and on a couple of occassions he's asked me to change pages - if you get a request like this, then do what your asked. Even if you win an expensive legal battle, it'll be a pyrrhic victory because you'll probably lose your income. I reg'd a name for an experiment, and I pm'd Aga. He said don't do it, so now see what you get when you enter www-netpond.com

Grab as much as you can, and run when things get hot. I think this is extremely unwise. Some big corps will pursue you relentlessly just to make an example. You may also get a bad reputation on webmaster boards.

[Toker]

Originally Posted by Head Boy

OK - here's a summary of what I believe to be the situation re:trademark domains, and I'll include any names containing an established business or site with them. You've got 3 options really -

Leave them alone, and this is the best option for most webmasters. If you want to get involved, you need to understand the law, and be articulate and persuasive. You also need to be prepared to lose and/or spend money.

Work with the trademark owner. This is the best option if you're determined to use tm names. You'll make the most money by promoting him, and you could get a lot of help. I make money from Netpond and Cash Uncovered domains. Meat knows this, and on a couple of occassions he's asked me to change pages - if you get a request like this, then do what your asked. Even if you win an expensive legal battle, it'll be a pyrrhic victory because you'll probably lose your income. I reg'd a name for an experiment, and I pm'd Aga. He said don't do it, so now see what you get when you enter www-netpond.com

Grab as much as you can, and run when things get hot. I think this is extremely unwise. Some big corps will pursue you relentlessly just to make an example. You may also get a bad reputation on webmaster boards.

I'll tell ya what, this could go on 4ever at this rate.
And it's still one of us talking Apples and the other Oranges.

I don't know how this got in?
Grab as much as you can, and run when things get hot
I don't advacate that at all, all I said over and over is not to worry
about TMs unless it was a major purchase as it isn't worth the time
and ya won't face the Firing Squad.

a bad reputation on webmaster boards
For what??? Has nothing to do with webmasters or Boards..
Myself I'd never reg any domain tied to any board or another
webmaster..

Some big corps will pursue you relentlessly just to make an example.
That is a matter of opinion, all they really want is it gone, most
webmasters who have been around awhile can be a bigger pain in
the ass to them..

I know I would never Reg a Major Corp name in a domain, wasn't me that
reg'd a domain with Sony in it..

I think we've about burned this to the ground by now and I'm going to
Harrahs and feed the slots..

As they used to say, "Smokeum if ya gotum..."