Should we discuss legal matters in this forum?

[Head Boy]

Lawyers are expensive, and they often don't understand the internet. The net is also international, so many lawyers will not fully understand the legal situation in other countries. Ultimately the lawyers would have us consult them over ever gallery or page that we create, but obviously this is not economic and a waste of money. Equally, if you have had papers served on you, and you will need to go to court, then you will need to seek legal advice. You need to do this to ensure that you respond in the correct way - legal systems are designed to ensure that those who are not trained in pushing legal papers will fail.

There is a broad middle ground, and it is my opinion that webmaster boards can offer an exceptionally good medium for the exchange of ideas. We all know that the opinions and advice given will vary considerably with the skill and abilities of the poster, but they are still useful for most of us to keep aware of trends and problems in the industry.

[cool1]

Well sure why not
I see nothing wrong with disussing legal issues at all
hell friends and I do it all the time here at home
and none of us is a lawyer or real knows anything.

.

[sellingonline]

as long as you don't blame for not knowing everything, we can I guess, nobody can stop us

[Head Boy]

nobody will know much if we don't discuss it.

[LAJ]

That's why it's important that if you work in this biz and retain an attorney, that they have an understanding of the adult Internet. It's all about minimizing risk.

If you have papers served on you, you'll need much more than legal advice... and if money was a concern before...

[Head Boy]

But as America's influence declines on the net, and American lawyers lose more and more international cases, doesn't it make more sense for us to try to support webmasters and keep then on a path that follows internet standards? Telling a webmaster that he can't be serious unless he dumps a few grand into the coffers of some lawyer isn't going to encourage him to obey the law. If the perceived penalty is less than the cost of advice, then the sensible move is to wait and see if there is any possibility of a penalty.

I noted the webmaster who advised people not to declare any taxable income rather than employ an accountant, do we want the same attitude to be bred in the new webmasters arriving from countries outside the control of the US

[nottslad]

I think legal matters should be discussed and not shied away from. Surely relevant subjects could be discussed without it being taken as an authoritative statement of the law.

Anyone with half a brain should know that if you're in real shit then you take proper legal advice from a qualified professional in that field, but no harm in using a board such as this to find out how deep any shit might be or even if there's any shit at all.

[glowlite]

Originally Posted by Head Boy

Should we discuss legal matters in this forum?

Short version: No

Long version: Maybe
I think discussion of legal matters is great, but ....
It seems to always morph into unqualified quasi legal advice that I'm sure many take as gospel. Prudent readers, members or not, would not depend on any legal advice dispensed in any public forum. But what about the people who read it and take it as fact?

The declared title of this site (archived meta) states 'Adult webmaster forums, info and resources' with no published disclaimer. It seems like uncensored posts that come across as legal advice could be an unnecessary liability exposure for Netpond.

Of course that's just my opinion.

[Head Boy]

You must be American Glowlite. It seems that Americans don't like to do anything without checking first to see if they will get sued. This helps to perpetrate the stranglehold that lawyers have, and to help breed extortionists like Acacia. Webmasters from many other countries don't suffer from such an oppressive legal system, and would like to know the accepted Internet practice in many areas.

I think that discussion helps to establish received opinion, and is therefore extremely useful. By denying this facility people are saying that you will need a few thousand to pay lawyers, and an $8 domain name to start up as an adult webmaster. That seems to me to be incorrect advice.

[glowlite]

Yes, I'm American, and the lions share of US attorneys are parasites IMHO. Their entire career is based on the grief and suffering of others. They collect their fees, win, lose or draw. So, they spend their time promoting litigation for any small reason, to enhance their business. Very few cases are declared frivolous by the judicial system.

I still don't think a globally accessible forum is the place to dispense legal advice. Or rather, what many may perceive as legal advice.
Forums, by their very nature, have many fold more readers than their active membership count.

Again, I am all in favor of the open discussion of legal issues. But they always seem to go astray.

Originally Posted by Head Boy

You must be American Glowlite. It seems that Americans don't like to do anything without checking first to see if they will get sued. This helps to perpetrate the stranglehold that lawyers have, and to help breed extortionists like Acacia. Webmasters from many other countries don't suffer from such an oppressive legal system, and would like to know the accepted Internet practice in many areas.

I think that discussion helps to establish received opinion, and is therefore extremely useful. By denying this facility people are saying that you will need a few thousand to pay lawyers, and an $8 domain name to start up as an adult webmaster. That seems to me to be incorrect advice.

[Brujah]

I don't see a problem with it. We can't hand-hold everyone who participates in the forum about everything. They should understand that the best we can do is give them information based on what we know or have observed. That said, it means the advice given might include links to another forum where a legal expert might be a regular who could give advice too.

Of course with the natural progression of a thread, valid replies might consist of someone reminding them that for every lawyer that wins a case, someone else lost theirs. In Adult there's always differing views by attorneys on issues like 2257, or what kind of content should be avoided, etc.. Which attorney's legal advice is right? In the end you have to go with your instinct and hope for the best.

Had we decided that legal issues should NOT be discussed here before?

[glowlite]

Originally Posted by Brujah

Had we decided that legal issues should NOT be discussed here before?

I think Head Boy is just trying to get some traffic in the domain forum

[Head Boy]

I started this discussion because I got fed up with people saying that there is nobody competent on Netpond, and that people should get their advice elsewhere. Those posters of course were "competent domainers" and could have contributed had they wished.

Netpond is a newbies board, and many of the members are short of funds. If we can help them, then I think we should. Yes, it would be nice if they took legal advice, but they aren't able to, so I think it wrong to leave them floundering. Sending them to a professional domain board which is possibly anti-adult sites is not doing them any service at all.

[Head Boy]

Originally Posted by glowlite

I think Head Boy is just trying to get some traffic in the domain forum

Actually I'm trying to make this forum the place to discuss adult domains. The adult forums on the big domain boards seem to be a waste of time.

[Brujah]

Originally Posted by Head Boy

I started this discussion because I got fed up with people saying that there is nobody competent on Netpond, and that people should get their advice elsewhere. Those posters of course were "competent domainers" and could have contributed had they wished.

Netpond is a newbies board, and many of the members are short of funds. If we can help them, then I think we should. Yes, it would be nice if they took legal advice, but they aren't able to, so I think it wrong to leave them floundering. Sending them to a professional domain board which is possibly anti-adult sites is not doing them any service at all.

I think the Domain forum should allow for both. We can give them advice based on our experiences and observations, and they can also learn where they might receive more qualified advice. I think it would hurt the Domain forum on Netpond if we didn't allow for both.

I might post and say "Hey you may want to visit _________, because _____ is a domain attorney and a regular member there who will often give you some free advice to consider."

Then you, myself and others might follow up with additional information to the "newbie" with advice or suggestions that he/she can consider. Ultimately, I think it's better to allow for all the above and let them decide which to take.

[SleazyBear]

The position I have always taken on this, is we are not lawyers, nor do we play one on tv, I spend a lot of money to keep a lawyer on retainer, If your in a bar and talking to a group of friends and talk about legal things, you still should contact a lawyer. This is a webmaster board, it is where we talk about things, As a mod and admin, I refrain from talking about anything a webmaster has to say about law, other than you should talk to a lawyer. If your in front of a judge and you say, so and so from netpond told me, he is going to ask you, is so and so a lawyer. and when you say no, he is going to laugh at you. The best advice anyone can give unless they are a lawyer is to ask one, there is a bunch of internet lawyers, I am sure if you need one, then ask.. I have a couple of numbers to lawyers be more and happy to send you there way.

This is a business, treat it like one..

[pam]

My response would be almost identical to Sleazy's .... the problem is someone says, "no, it's ok, naked breasts don't count as sexual so you don't need 2257 documentation" and a newbie takes that to the bank, even though it's incorrect. Misinformation is given and then people like Haui need to come in and straighten things out.

I don't know what type of barristers you go to, but you don't need to spend thousands of dollars for legal advice. One adult attorney charges $700 (last I checked) to familiarize you with 2257. He goes over your website and gives his legal opinion on what needs to be changed, if anything. He makes sure you have all your paperwork in order. Remember, in the USA, each state has individual laws. Did you know 4 states have 21 as the legal age?

The problem I see is people get into this industry as a hobby and figure they'll try to see if they can make money. But, you're dealing with FEDERAL laws (if in the USA, though other countries don't allow porn at all) and you can land in prison for a simple typo. You would not open a restaurant without an inspection from the board of health, right?

I know of someone on another board who got a C&D letter and kept saying he didn't have thousands to have an attorney respond so would do so himself. His assumptions of the cost were extremely incorrect.

Whether you make one $35 sale a month or 100 sales a day, this is a business and there are laws you have to follow. You may live outside the USA but if you host here, you need to learn about the laws. You may not like them but that's the way it is.

You should not use a discount lawyer, either. As LAJ said, an adult industry attorney is whom you should seek. They know about the 1st amendment, about 2257, 4472, domain names, etc.

The legal forums are a wealth of information, and cost nothing.

[Jeremy]

Should legal *issues* be discussed here? Absolutely, if it helps people's general understanding of issues surrounding ICANN, WIPO, Trademarks etc etc, stamps out ignorant myths, helps people to do their own research and come to their own conclusions.

Should legal *advice* be given here? Absolutely not, unless the person giving it is qualified to do so. In general, free advice is worth exactly the amount you paid for it.

[Head Boy]

The posts by Sleazy and Pam indicate what I think is the problem. Most webmasters are not from America, and therefore they don't need a lawyer to tell them 2257 is a destructive local law which doesn't apply to them. American lawyers are also used to extort money and domains from people. Paying a lawyer (who may encourage legal action when it isn't neccessary) can increase the cost of running sites, and may be more than some webmasters can afford. You only need to look at Acacia to see that legal extortion goes on all the time.

I think we should discuss legal matters and stand up to the bullying of greedy US lawyers if they don't have jurisdiction over us, or if they are trying it on. If you are running a paysite, then maybe you can justify the costs of paying a legal retainer, but a small time gallery submitter can't. We're letting them down if we don't discuss their problems openly to help them and others. Legal threats can be devastating to a single parent struggling to feed her kids. She may fell comfortable with Netpond, and totally out of her depth on another "professional" board. I think it's wrong to turn our backs on her because we're frightened of the lawyers.

I suspect that the reason internet lawyers don't post on Netpond is because they think most members can't afford to pay them. Leaving those that can't pay to drown, or taking away those that can, just reinforces this opinion of the lawyers and lets all of us down.

The adult industry has specific problems (as well as the usual general ones), lets discuss them openly.

[nottslad]

Originally Posted by pam

One adult attorney charges $700 (last I checked) to familiarize you with 2257. He goes over your website and gives his legal opinion on what needs to be changed, if anything. He makes sure you have all your paperwork in order. Remember, in the USA, each state has individual laws. Did you know 4 states have 21 as the legal age?

I think that exactly is the point - how many newbies could afford $700 to check out the domain they just registered for $7 and the half dozen galleries they submit a week?

In any case 2257 is an American law that applies to the US, and as Headboy has said before, compliance with 2257 is possibly against the law in other more liberated parts of the world..... not every adult webmaster lives in the land of the free. Some of us can visit Cuba and God forbid, can even gamble online